Can Someone Die to Save You at a Time You Didn’t Exist?

The commonest statement I have heard since infancy is: “The Jew loves you that’s why he died to save you.” I asked them: “When did he die?” They answered: “Two thousand years ago.” Ah! but I didn’t exist then and what am I saved from anyway? What are they talking about? Dear readers, I do believe in love but I have a question. Can someone die (out of love) to save you at a time you didn’t exist?

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18 thoughts on “Can Someone Die to Save You at a Time You Didn’t Exist?

  1. A young married couple buys a bigger house because they expect to have kids. So they prepare for the kids who don’t yet exist.

    So… yes.

    Especially if we are talking about an omniscient God. Christ’s death and resurrection is accomplished to pay the hereditary debt of sin inherited through descent from Adam – a perfect reparation had to be offered to make up for a perfect crime, and now the path is clear so long as we choose to acknowledge the destination (faith,) think we can get to it with help (hope), and actually choose to go there (charity).

    Liked by 3 people

    • I’m not sure how your analogy answers the question. Parents can provide rooms for their unborn kids but that cannot be considered atonement in christianity. I’m talking about literally dying to expiate, especially when the expiator is believed to be both the sacrificed and the deity.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I’ll try a different analogy then. Suppose a man establishes a trust fund for his great-great grandchildren whom he knows he will never meet. The money is there, and the kids can withdraw it when they are ready, despite not having been a direct gift. With the Passion, it is a “universal trust fund” which is accessed through baptism. Christ pays the debt of sin (that excludes all descendants of Adam from Heaven) which we ourselves cannot pay (as we are not of infinite worth, as He is,) and so we can take the “funds” of His sacrifice to pay off the debt we are born into (original sin). Afterward, we simply have to avoid incurring more “debt” which can’t be “paid,” viz. grave sin which is not repented of.

        This is why Christ is sometimes described as “ransoming” humanity. It also makes sense of the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which is a story about Adam’s fall, God’s progressive responses, and then finally the Samaritan who PAYS to heal the man and will pay anything else which is required upon return.

        Liked by 2 people

        • You’re saying a lot of things that don’t even metaphorically relate to the topic. I don’t lose my life when I establish a trust fund for my descendants. If the Christian atonement anecdote is meant to simply make people feel better that’s completely understandable. But please don’t tell me you’re assured of immortality because someone died 2000 years ago. All one has is now.

          Liked by 1 person

          • That’s just it though, we don’t see it as an anecdote. If God really wants to save human beings, but human beings have a debt that must be paid first, and only God can pay that debt, then God must become a human being and pay it in the appropriate way. Then we can be saved.

            I can recommend “Cur Deus Homo” by St. Anselm for more.

            Peace…
            -CRM

            Liked by 1 person

  2. Hi Veracious Poet,
    Your question is humanly logical in every way you look a it, and I can totally understand where you are coming from. The only way I can put forward to you is this.

    In Flatland, where everything and everyone is two-dimensional, what are the chances of Flatlanders understanding concepts of volume and depth?
    None!

    Of course they may talk about it, if some smart person there proposes the idea, but that is as far as they can go. They will never fully grasp the idea of the 3rd dimension.
    In this analogy, we are the Flatlanders and God exists outside of the 2-D world and in the real 3-D world. Our attempts to explain God will be very limited to our finite understanding where all we know is the 2-dimensional plane. So your questions of God are simply beyond our scope of understanding.

    The only way we can understand is by opening our hearts to Him to come into us, to bring all truths to our understanding. That is why Jesus says He is standing at the door of our hearts and knocking. Asking for us to open it for Him. You see He will not force His way in unless we invite Him in. Then He says if you do accept Him in, then He will come in and reason with you as you get to know Him more.

    At the end of the day, Jesus is all about Relationships between us and Him, and between our fellow human beings.

    I hope I have not bored you too much there, champ. If you have follow-up questions or feel the ned to discuss more then feel free to reply.

    Have a great day.

    Nick

    Liked by 1 person

      • Sorry.
        I was wrong to assume you knew about flatland. Flatland is a fictitious 2-dimensional world created by Edwin A. Abbott, where the plot centres around geometric figures. 🙂 More on this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

        I cannot speak for the rest of the world’s religion but Christianity certainly has reasoning. You can find some of the world’s most profound teachings in the book of Matthew chapters 5-7.

        It is only when the notion of ‘faith’ comes into the picture that people get all unsettled about the true nature of what Christianity is all about, and start grouping it under the ‘fairy tale’ label.

        Keeping in mind the flatland analogy in my previous comment, FAITH then, is like the enabling factor for people in the 2-dimensional realm to connect with the creator being who lives in the ‘real’ 3-D world. It is by faith that we reach out to God and connect with Him. Even though we do not have a complete picture of Him, with every conversation of prayer, and reading His Word, more and more of Him is revealed. We in turn are transformed more and more into His likeness as our relationship grows.

        Like I said, it all centres around our relationship with Him, and with our fellow human being and His creation.

        Thank you.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Though I have not read the book I completely understand what you mean by Flatland as against 3D. My question is who created both realms? Indeed Mathew 5:7 is in summary the conceptual foundations of Christianity but I see it more as idealistic than profound. It loses touch with reality. How many of the meek feel blessed?

          Liked by 2 people

          • Certainly a person or entity within these “realms” could not have created either of these realms. Much like a component within a computer cannot get up and start creating a computer. Someone outside of intelligent design would have been the one to create these “realms”.

            I mean, look at the wondrous creation all around us. Even within, our entire molecular composition. The DNA as the blueprint of every life form on earth. It’s so mind bogglingly amazing, that to think it just happened by chance takes much much greater measure of faith than to believe in God.

            As for the meek being blessed, it does not refer to any warm fuzzy feel good feeling one may experience inside of them. It looks at the greater scheme of things.
            Because aside from being blessed with life on earth, ultimately we will go to a better place when Jesus comes back to take us home.

            Btw, I referred to the entire three chapters 5 to 7, and not just that one passage.

            Liked by 1 person

            • You failed to answer the question as to who created the finite and infinite realms. With regards to intelligent design, I hope you’re not speaking of an anthropomorphic being as the author of the universe because I’m a pantheist. The more you ascribe human qualities to your god the less interesting it becomes.

              Liked by 1 person

              • I’m sure I have answered your question. That the wondrous creation and beauty around us could not have just sprung forth from nothing.
                They all testify of intelligent design, much like the keyboard and computer in front of you required intelligent design to design and create this technology exactly the way it is.

                That intelligent design which created all of us and all of creation is God. He is not merely an ‘anthropomorphic being’. We were all designed and created in His image by Him.

                You initially asked if “religion actually teach people to reason?”
                I think that believing in an all powerful loving God who created us is really quite a reasonable and logical concept to grasp than to dwell on the premise that everything we see around us just happened by chance after some massive explosion of pure nothing!

                Anyway, that is my faith. I came here to share some thoughts with regard to your original post, in the understanding of Christ and His death for us on the cross.

                I respect that you have your own belief that you believe in, so I shall leave it at that.

                Have a good day.

                Liked by 1 person

                • John 11: 49…”Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.” Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” — Analyse this passage critically. The “whole nation” here refers to the jews.

                  Liked by 2 people

                  • Context, brother. Context.

                    Of course in that passage, Caiaphas was talking about the Jewish nation, but more importantly he was driven by self-preservation. He was the high priest at that time and he had respect, honour and privilege at both the religious and government level. When Jesus appeared on the scene, pretty much rocked their boat. He was seen as a trouble maker. They did not want the Romans to come in and remove them from their comfortable positions. They did not want to displease their Roman rulers, so they conspired to have Him killed.

                    It can also be seen as a metaphor in itself.

                    In any case, if you look back into the beginning, the very sacrificial system was a shadow of Christ’s ultimate sacrifice on the cross. In the past an innocent lamb was killed and sacrificed in the stead of the person who sinned.

                    That is why when John the Baptist saw Jesus by the shores of the River Jordan he exclaimed, “Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of THE WORLD.” (John 1:29)

                    Liked by 1 person

                    • If you can’t notice that this is where the idea that “he died for the world” came from then this conversation is becoming redundant. Literally, Caiaphas had him killed and lied to the people that he died for them because he didn’t want a revolt. The people then ignorantly generalized this to mean he died to save the whole world when it’s possible he may not even know any Black person at the time of his death. But because his followers wanted to spread his philosophy they said if you believe in him then he died for you too. Organised religion is fraud period!

                      Liked by 1 person

                    • I would have to be a fool to cherry pick just one single verse out of 31,102 verses of the Bible to build a case to refute my belief in Christ.

                      Caiaphas or who ever “the people” you are referring to would have to be a William Shakespeare level genius to write the 27 books of the New Testament. Not only that, they would have to go back in time to insert so many prophetic verses littered throughout the 39 books of the old testament that points to Jesus Christ as Messiah.

                      Have a read of Isaiah 53 for example. Isaiah, by the way, was written over 700 years before Jesus was even born.

                      You asked for reasoning and I’m sure I have done my best to give you just that all throughout this discussion.

                      I respect your stand, so let’s just respectfully leave it at that. I rest my case.

                      Have a great day.

                      Liked by 1 person

                  • Furthermore, if we rewind and go back further into the past, to the days of Abraham, we can see in Genesis 12:3 that God, when pronouncing blessings upon Abraham finished with the promise that “in you (Abraham), shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”

                    All the families of the earth!

                    This was even before the existence of a Jewish nation.

                    When Abraham received this word, he was yet living in Ur of the Chaldeans, which is modern day Iraq I believe.

                    Liked by 1 person

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